CGC policy on Qualified books (Comic Book Forums)

  • CGC policy on Qualified books

Author Discussion
  • Posted: November 9, 2010 11:59:09 am
  • Based on a recent posting where a book missing a story page was given an 8.0 qualified grade,
    http://comicbookrealm.com/topic/24/11271
    I asked CGC about it. This is their response...

    said:

    Subject: RE: Contact form filled out

    I just spoke with our VP and he said that any page missing can produce a qualified label instead of automatically killing an otherwise beautiful book down to a .5.

    ---
    Wm. Eric Downton
    CGC Receiving Manager
    ---
    Subject: RE: Contact form filled out

    Eric,

    Here is a screen shot of the item from the auction, clearly showing the CGC sticker and number.

    It clearly states "Last page missing, affects story, incomplete". I just find it hard to believe an 8.0 grade, even qualified, would go on an item that is clearly incomplete. I have instances where in my own experience CGC has refused to grade at 8.0 or higher because of a bend that breaks color.

    Does the qualified grade simply mean it looks nice, no matter what the real condition is?mkevt=1&mkcid=1&mkrid=711-53200-19255-0&campid=5336824214&toolid=10001& If so, then CGC has lost a great deal of credibility, not only with myself, but also the ComicBookRealm.com web site and it's members that are tracking this discussion right now.

    Larry

    -------Original Message-------

    Subject: RE: Contact form filled out

    I am sorry, but our internet is blocked and I cannot see that post. If you can provide the actual certification number, I can look it up for you.

    As for the 8.0 and Qualified status, if the page is an ad page that does not affect the story, then we would Qualify it meaning we ignore it for grading purposes. If we did not do that (for a story page, for instance), the book would have gotten a .5 Incomplete grade and have been killed, value wise.

    CGC policy has always been to be a fair as possible, and we will always qualify such issues with a clear note as to the reason on the label. If that does not sit well with you, I am sorry, but it is how we do it and you always have the choice not to buy the book.

    ---
    Wm. Eric Downton
    CGC Receiving Manager
    ---

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    To: CGC Submissions
    Subject: Contact form filled out


    The following contact responded to the page at /ccg/cgc/cgcComics/contactSave.asp
    Name: Larry Sipe
    Title:
    Company:
    Address:
    Address2:
    City:
    State:
    Zip:
    Country:
    Phone: *********
    Extension:
    Fax:
    Email: ***********
    Their answers are below:
    formname CGC-Contactus
    message Can you explain to me how a comic missing a page got an 8.0 grade?mkevt=1&mkcid=1&mkrid=711-53200-19255-0&campid=5336824214&toolid=10001&?mkevt=1&mkcid=1&mkrid=711-53200-19255-0&campid=5336824214&toolid=10001& Even "qualified" an incomplete comic should grade no more than FAIR?mkevt=1&mkcid=1&mkrid=711-53200-19255-0&campid=5336824214&toolid=10001&?mkevt=1&mkcid=1&mkrid=711-53200-19255-0&campid=5336824214&toolid=10001& http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?mkevt=1&mkcid=1&mkrid=711-53200-19255-0&campid=5336824214&toolid=10001&ViewItem&rt=nc&nma=true&item=130450255690&si=8prxaPEy5%252FraanRRAI916PBbmVc%253D&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWNX%3AIT
    submit Submit




    SOOOO. I guess it is buyer beware when buying a CGC Qualified book. You are probably getting a book with a hidden defect, missing page(s), etc. So basically you are buying a worthless but attractive book.

    Hmmm, I wonder if I send them this gorgeous early Lois Lane cover I have , which is unfortunately just the cover, I can get a 9.4 qualified grade on it?mkevt=1&mkcid=1&mkrid=711-53200-19255-0&campid=5336824214&toolid=10001&?mkevt=1&mkcid=1&mkrid=711-53200-19255-0&campid=5336824214&toolid=10001&?mkevt=1&mkcid=1&mkrid=711-53200-19255-0&campid=5336824214&toolid=10001& Think

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  • Posted: November 9, 2010 12:11:28 pm
  • thanks that clear up a lot. =), I got it for cheap too, not too worried about it, Now I'd rather buy raw comics instead of qualfied ones. haha

    Edit: They person that was selling the qualified books, also has 2 or 3 more qualified Wilbur books for sale, all with good grades =S

    Last edited November 9, 2010 12:15:00 pm
    Image
  • Posted: November 9, 2010 12:44:03 pm
  • "As for the 8.0 and Qualified status, if the page is an ad page that does not affect the story, then we would Qualify it meaning we ignore it for grading purposes."

    WHAT?? I can tear out sections of story pages without affecting the story, so would they look the other way for that too? Why not do that for all comics? "9.6 Qualified .... inside pages are all torn, but otherwise nice!"

    I've totally lost respect for CGC.

    "If we did not do that (for a story page, for instance), the book would have gotten a .5 Incomplete grade and have been killed, value wise. "

    Well that comic WAS missing a story page, so I'm not sure what they're talking about. Seems like they're saying that book SHOULD have gotten a 0.5 grade because it was missing a story page, not an ad page.





    Last edited November 9, 2010 12:47:26 pm
  • Posted: November 9, 2010 4:12:07 pm
  • I am sorry...I just don't get it. I can understand a qualified label for non-verified signatures, however, they shouldn't qualify a book for any other reason. The whole point of CGC (PGX) is to have an impartial 3rd party grade the book at INDUSTRY standards.

    If the "bible" (Overstreet) says it should be a .5 or 1.0 at best, then that is the grade it should have.

    CGC said:
    "If we did not do that (for a story page, for instance), the book would have gotten a .5 Incomplete grade and have been killed, value wise. "
    THAT IS THE WHOLE POINT...there is no value in a .5. You are arbitrarily trying to inflate the "value" of the book.

    Try sending them a modern comic with the cover missing. Would they give it a 10.0 qualified if the overall book is perfect just without the cover?

    Last edited November 9, 2010 4:14:21 pm
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  • Posted: November 9, 2010 4:27:39 pm
  • I see now, how this a big issue =S
    Image
  • Posted: November 9, 2010 10:33:37 pm
  • I had always been skeptical about "slabbed" books from CGC & PGX; now, I believe I'm seeing the light....

    CGC said:
    If that does not sit well with you, I am sorry, but it is how we do it and you always have the choice not to buy the book.


    To me, that comment is like a blatant slap in the face to honest collectors who want to preserve their books in the best way possible. You're right CGC; I will NEVER purchase ANY books from you.Not talking

    I'd also like to tell them where to "sit"......Twisted Evil

    Thanks, Spa, for your research into this matter.

    Last edited November 9, 2010 10:34:52 pm
    Pick-ups this month
    ?

    On the way...
    The Avengers (Vol. 1) #58
    Silver Surfer (Vol. 1) #2
    Crisis on Infinite Earths DC/Wal-Mart 100-pg Giant


    Submitted/Back from CGC...
    ?

  • Posted: November 10, 2010 1:36:01 pm
  • **** More info

    From: Eric Downton
    Date: 11/10/2010 1:54:10 PM
    Subject: RE: Contact form filled out

    You are correct in that we do use the Qualifed label for signatures, but that is only one of the stated reasons we use it. I am sorry if that seems misleading to you, but our Qualified labels always clearly state why the book was qualified. If the seller does not disclose this or if a buyer does not look into a book knowing full well that the book does not have a blue Universal label, then that is not CGC's fault.

    If you do not like what we do with the Qualified label, then simply do not buy such books. The fact that we do qualify books does not negate the accuracy of our blue Universal grades.

    I do wish there was a resolution to this issue for you, but I don't think there is. We stand behind our resoning for a Qualified label and I do not see that changing any time soon.

    ---
    Wm. Eric Downton
    CGC Receiving Manager

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    From: Larry Sipe
    Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 1:39 PM
    To: Eric Downton
    Subject: RE: Contact form filled out


    Eric,

    In discussions with other collectors, it has been generally agreed that the CGC "Qualified" grade was thought to be initiated specifically for signed books where CGC staff did not personally witness the signature, which is probably a very, very large portion of signed books. It was agreed that this was a form of protection for CGC, while recognizing signatures that may have a valid Certificate of Authenticity. It is agreed that this is a valid purpose for "Qualified" grade.

    But all members, that have expressed an opinion, agree that for CGC to assign a higher grade to an otherwise uncollectible comic, is invalid and very misleading. To accentuate the point, here are several online grading guides that do not grade an incomplete comic above a 0.5 to 1.8. I am also told that the Official Overstreet Grading Guide, the "Bible" if you will, of the comic collecting universe, also makes this point, although I cannot verify this as I do not have a current copy.

    From other sources:
    http://www.nostomania.com/servlets/com.nostomania.CatPage?name=ComicsGradingMain - 0.5 for an incomplete book.
    http://www.comicspriceguide.com/p-conditions.asp - 1.0 to 1.5 for an incomplete book.
    http://www.teako170.com/poor.html - 0.5 grade for any missing pages which affect a story.
    http://stlcomics.com/grdgd.html - 1.0 to 1.8 no specifics details mentioned, but no higher grade listed with any missing page.
    http://www.comic-book-collection-made-easy.com/comic-book-price-guide.html - 0.5 grade for any missing pages.
    http://www.metropoliscomics.com//load_page.php?page=Grading_Criteria - Here is an excerpt from their referenced "Overstreet Grading Guide (underline mine)":

    POOR (PR) (ONE 0.5): Most comic books in this grade have been sufficiently degraded to the point that copies may have extremely severe stains, missing staples, brittleness, mildew or moderate to heavy cover abrasion to the point that some cover inks are indistinct/absent. Comic books in this grade can have small chunks missing and pieces out of pages. They may have been defaced with paints, varnishes, glues, oil, indelible markers or dyes. Covers may be split the entire length of the book, but both halves must be present and basically still there with some chunks missing. A page(s) may be missing as long as it is noted along side of the nomenclature; I.e.: “POOR (0.5) 2nd Page Missing.” Value depends on extent of defects, but would average about 1/3 of GOOD.

    http://www.hoboes.com/pub/Comics/About%20Comics/Technical%20Issues/Grading%20Guide/ - POOR grade is best, with FAIR for missing pieces but story intact.
    http://www.2-clicks-comics.com/article/comic-book-grading.html - 0.5 grade for any missing pages.

    I could probably add dozens more, but I'm sure you get the picture. And all the above agree that FAIR is the lowest acceptable grade for collecting. I would hope that you might reconsider your position on this, as it detracts from the reputation of CGC as a reliable and trustworthy source of fair and equitable grading. Your statement "any page missing can produce a qualified label instead of automatically killing an otherwise beautiful book down to a .5" implies you take a book with no value and are assigning a false value to it. This whole discussion came up because one of our members bought the book in question and asked if it was a good deal. It is sad because he didn't read the fine print and paid for a worthless book with a CGC rating of 8.0. In many cases, it is not easy to read the fine print in an auction. But you can be sure many of our members will now automatically be skeptical of any CGC "Qualified" books.

    Yes, it is buyer beware, but isn't that the very reason that CGC has evolved into the industry standard? I just hope that to give an incomplete book a qualified grade is not just a matter of profits to sell a service. I have many CGC books and trust that they are graded fairly and using a set of standards. But this matter has shaken my confidence. I have a very nice, possibly 8.0 to 8.5, cover for a Silver Age Lois Lane comic, just the cover. If I sent that to you, do you think you would give it a qualified grade of 8.0 even if there were no story pages? I sure hope not. I am really not trying to be contentious, I am just shocked at what I, and others, consider a trust being broken.

    Larry

    **** PS He didn't address the last paragraph, or the bookless cover question...
    The joy is in the journey, not just the destination.
  • Posted: November 10, 2010 1:55:16 pm
  • Spa - you should have gone with "I have a Cover for Lois Lane that I've stapled to a Shadowhawk comic" and asked if they'd give it an 8.0 with the comment "Incorrect interior". Wink

    It really does make a joke of the concept...... but then I would never buy a slabbed book because my reason for buying comics is to read them generally. Very Happy
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  • Posted: November 10, 2010 2:03:58 pm
  • Has anyone brought this up on other forums they might go to? I.e. what is the consensus in the CGC forums?
    Favorite Quote: "You're not just some guy in a bat costume are you? ARE YOU FREAKING KIDDING ME?! - Justice League #1, 2011"

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  • Posted: November 10, 2010 2:12:05 pm
  • I'm not a frequenter of other forums, but if someone is, maybe they could pose the question there also?
    The joy is in the journey, not just the destination.
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