What constitues a first appearance of a character? (Comic Book Forums)

What constitues a first appearance of a character?

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Crookaveli Collector in Training Posts: 9 My Collection	Posted: December 8, 2014 8:24:05 pm I've been wondering this for a while. Is it when the character is engaging with others in the story line? When they have a monologue? Or, when they're in a preview or an ad for an upcoming book/story? There's a lot of opinions on this, but does anyone have a rock solid authority source on this?

junobeach Wise Beyond the Years moderator Location: Victoria, BC Canada Posts: 2148 My Collection	Posted: December 8, 2014 8:31:25 pm More than anything the market dictates this. An example of this is Hulk #181 - first appearance of Wolverine. Even though #180 has a full body image of Wolverine and has him talking to other characters, plus he calls himself by name...and earlier in the issue they mention he's Weapon X...all this and it's still considered only a cameo.
tangledwebs Wise Beyond the Years Location: Buffalo Posts: 1189 My Collection	Posted: December 9, 2014 7:01:29 am The same with Venom in ASM #299.
L0ngB0x Grasshopper lifetime member Location: NJ Posts: 131 My Collection	Posted: December 9, 2014 8:17:04 am I think the characters first full appearance is pretty much based on the way superman's first full appearance is , you have the character appearing on the cover and on almost all the pages and involved through the entire story. this may not be the best measure or means, but i think this is the way it is based. therefore a character appearing only on one page or even two or even just one box in a 30 or even 80 page book would be less than 25% of the entire book and would be in my opinion considered the first appearance but couldn't possibly be the first Full appearance and so they are usually considered a cameo. " alt="Image" title="Image" /> " alt="Image" title="Image" /> " alt="Image" title="Image" />" alt="Image" title="Image" />
Rapha1978 Comic Guru Location: North Carolina Posts: 939 My Collection	Posted: December 9, 2014 4:12:13 pm Sometimes a first appearance is outside of comics but still the first appearances in comics have value. Take Harley Quinn for example. She first appeared in Batman: The Animated Series. And there's Wolverine's daughter, X-23 who also first appeared in a cartoon, X-Men: Evolution. We strike hard and fade away into the night
dough boy I have no life moderator lifetime member Location: Kansas City Posts: 12061 My Collection	Posted: December 9, 2014 5:21:29 pm Honestly it just takes someone who is very persuasive to convince the rest of the community. I won't say there is an agenda behind this, but I often wonder if they have bought up a lot of cheap copies and wait until interest picks up from their story and then dump them. Almost like a pump and dump scheme in stocks. Favorite Quote: "You're not just some guy in a bat costume are you? ARE YOU FREAKING KIDDING ME?! - Justice League #1, 2011" Hunting for (mainly reprints/variants) - Please help! - See My Profile
CrossoverKing Teacher Location: Johnstown, PA Posts: 263 My Collection	Posted: December 10, 2014 5:15:15 pm Okay...I'll put my 2¢ worth in. I just feel the use of the adjective "1st" means just that! First appearance...what else can it mean? If it is a legal appearance, not a parody...a 1st appearance is just that! Now...when you want to be more specific like first FULL appearance, that is fine...but the first appearance of Wolverine (for my money) is Hulk #180. By calling #181 his first appearance, you say that he did NOT appear in #180!
logerine Comic Guru Location: Tennessee Posts: 725 My Collection	Posted: December 10, 2014 5:45:15 pm Crossoverking said: Okay...I'll put my 2¢ worth in. I just feel the use of the adjective "1st" means just that! First appearance...what else can it mean? If it is a legal appearance, not a parody...a 1st appearance is just that! Now...when you want to be more specific like first FULL appearance, that is fine...but the first appearance of Wolverine (for my money) is Hulk #180. By calling #181 his first appearance, you say that he did NOT appear in #180! I agree with you. But in the case of Wolverine there was a prototype published in Foom #2. It was created by a fan named Andy Olsen, and the character's name is The Wolverine. Is that Wolverine's 1st appearance, or just some other character with the same name? I find it hard to believe that Roy Thomas and John Romita Sr. were not influenced by Andy Olsen's idea.
CrossoverKing Teacher Location: Johnstown, PA Posts: 263 My Collection	Posted: December 10, 2014 7:00:33 pm They may have been influenced by it...but... ...it was not the "official" Marvel Wolverine. It was historically significant...yet, not THE Wolverine.
L0ngB0x Grasshopper lifetime member Location: NJ Posts: 131 My Collection	Posted: December 10, 2014 7:34:29 pm If the scene or story starts in one issue and ends in another would you call the second issue the second appearance? " alt="Image" title="Image" /> " alt="Image" title="Image" /> " alt="Image" title="Image" />" alt="Image" title="Image" />
CrossoverKing Teacher Location: Johnstown, PA Posts: 263 My Collection	Posted: December 11, 2014 6:36:30 am Yes...but I reserve the right to change my mind...LOL
L0ngB0x Grasshopper lifetime member Location: NJ Posts: 131 My Collection	Posted: December 11, 2014 9:26:52 am Lol well i think these terms are all intended for a buyer in mind, new readers are born every day and without giving away too many spoilers it gives you a general idea , hey in this book i'm going to get a glimpse of my character and in this one i'm getting a full story here. prototypes can only be prototypes if the creator actually says they used ideas from them i guess, but they aren't the same characters we know and love imo " alt="Image" title="Image" /> " alt="Image" title="Image" /> " alt="Image" title="Image" />" alt="Image" title="Image" />
CrossoverKing Teacher Location: Johnstown, PA Posts: 263 My Collection	Posted: December 11, 2014 10:42:46 am This is one of the big things that surprised me about the comic book industry. I started collecting in 1995. It was then that I bouth my first comic book since 1970. Nothing seems to be clear cut. Rarely is there a full listing anywhere of all variants. Variants have different names or nicknames. A first appearance is not really a first appearance. Oh well...such is life.
L0ngB0x Grasshopper lifetime member Location: NJ Posts: 131 My Collection	Posted: December 11, 2014 11:10:37 am i know its a little crazy but with sports cards , and i'm going off topic but with players you can have hundreds of different rookie cards because of different card manufacturers and the first of those are the "true 1sts" Lol at least with comics there is a definite start. " alt="Image" title="Image" /> " alt="Image" title="Image" /> " alt="Image" title="Image" />" alt="Image" title="Image" />
Tex75455 Wise Beyond the Years lifetime member Location: Arlington, VA Posts: 1871 My Collection	Posted: December 21, 2014 4:52:00 pm Rapha1978 said: Sometimes a first appearance is outside of comics but still the first appearances in comics have value. Take Harley Quinn for example. She first appeared in Batman: The Animated Series. And there's Wolverine's daughter, X-23 who also first appeared in a cartoon, X-Men: Evolution. not to nit pick... but x-23 is a clone, not his daughter (Kinda important since wolverine has killed (almost?) all of his children
puinno Wise Beyond the Years lifetime member Location: Syracuse, New York Posts: 2068 My Collection	Posted: December 21, 2014 7:19:09 pm Crossoverking said: Okay...I'll put my 2¢ worth in. I just feel the use of the adjective "1st" means just that! First appearance...what else can it mean? If it is a legal appearance, not a parody...a 1st appearance is just that! Now...when you want to be more specific like first FULL appearance, that is fine...but the first appearance of Wolverine (for my money) is Hulk #180. By calling #181 his first appearance, you say that he did NOT appear in #180! I agree with this completely. The 1st appearance should be their actual 1st appearance in a story (not in an advertisement but in the story itself). Just because he cameoed in the first appearance does not make it not a first appearance it is still a 1st appearance in my eyes cause that literally is their 1st appearance in continuity.
logerine Comic Guru Location: Tennessee Posts: 725 My Collection	Posted: December 21, 2014 7:45:33 pm But what if it's just a shadow or silhouette? Does that really count? Or the hand of Doomsday in Man of Steel #17? Does that really count as a first appearance? Wolverine in Hulk 180 is different. We see a head-to-toe shot of Wolverine. We see him speak. He is called Weapon X and Wolverine.
L0ngB0x Grasshopper lifetime member Location: NJ Posts: 131 My Collection	Posted: December 22, 2014 9:27:11 am Maybe we can invent a 5 point inspection system like the dmv.......1 point for appendage; 2 points for a name reference; 3 points for an origin; 1 for any form of shadow or any silhouette; 2 for showing off abilities, if it adds up to five or more it gets first appearance. " alt="Image" title="Image" /> " alt="Image" title="Image" /> " alt="Image" title="Image" />" alt="Image" title="Image" />
The Bobarian Comic Guru lifetime member Location: New York Posts: 825 My Collection	Posted: December 22, 2014 1:35:44 pm I think regardless whether a character's first appearance is a cameo or a more fleshed out full appearance, it still is that character's first appearance. And I'm fine with the market deciding which of them are considered the most desirable, and therefore the most valuable, to own - the cameo or the first full appearance. I consider Hulk #180 as being Wolverine's 1st appearance (as a cameo) and Hulk #181 as his 1st full appearance (but 2nd overall appearance). And Uncanny X-Men Annual #14 (July 1990) as Gambit's 1st appearance (as an extensive cameo) and Uncanny X-Men #266 (Aug. 1990) as his 1st full appearance (2nd overall appearance). Also, I consider Superman's Pal Jimmy Olsen #134 and #135 to be Darkseid's 1st and 2nd appearances - even though both are cameos - and Forever People #1 and New Gods #1 (both March 1971) as Darkseid's 3rd and 4th overall appearances but his 1st and 2nd full appearances. So the market has decided that Hulk #181, X-Men #266 and Superman's Pal Jimmy Olsen #134 are the most desirable to own for the time being. Basically, I believe the order of appearances of a character - i.e. 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc. - should be based on what was the date of publication (month, year) of that book only, regardless of type of appearance - cameo or full. Well that's my two cents on the topic. Last edited December 30, 2014 9:05:29 am
tangledwebs Wise Beyond the Years Location: Buffalo Posts: 1189 My Collection	Posted: December 22, 2014 1:56:04 pm With that I'm still saying ASM #299 is Venom's 1st app.
The Bobarian Comic Guru lifetime member Location: New York Posts: 825 My Collection	Posted: December 22, 2014 2:31:05 pm tangledwebs said: With that I'm still saying ASM #299 is Venom's 1st app. I agree with ASM #300 being Venom's 2nd overall appearance but his 1st full appearance and more desirable to own for collectors as the market has indicated. Last edited December 22, 2014 4:14:47 pm
Logical102 Collector in Training Posts: 19 My Collection	Posted: December 24, 2014 5:28:46 pm We should have first appearance and first story/adventure
Canuck I have no life moderator Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 10685 My Collection	Posted: December 25, 2014 10:28:56 am I think all that is need is a 1st Appearance Cameo 1st Appearance Full to go along with the other appointed slots. Last edited December 25, 2014 10:29:21 am "Disliking everything is not the same thing as having an opinion"
CrossoverKing Teacher Location: Johnstown, PA Posts: 263 My Collection	Posted: December 25, 2014 1:10:23 pm That's a good suggestion. My only problem is...what is a cameo? Is it one panel, two? Is it one page? What is a full appearance? I'm sorry. I try to simplify. Life is so complicated. Why should comic books be complicated? I have intercompany crossovers that are intercompany crossovers because a character from another company appears in one panel. I can't say it isn't a crossover because it is just one panel. When you say "cameo" it is just another can of worms...something else to define. The same holds true for "full" appearance. Then...you get into "major" and "minor" appearances. I agree...let supply and demand dictate the "value" of a book...but first appearance is just what it is...the FIRST appearance...whether it be one panel, ten, major appearance, minor or otherwise.
Canuck I have no life moderator Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 10685 My Collection	Posted: December 25, 2014 3:24:28 pm Personally I could give a rats to what the market wants, if we as collectors and even sites like this one want to list it how it should be ie Hulk 180 should be the 1st appearance of wolverine and not 181 that's what we should do. If speculators and investors want to think 181 is the one they want to own so be it, but as collectors we should know better and track them the correct way. As for cameo, just get rid of it altogether, just add characters to the list reguardless of their involvement in the book Just my 2 cents Last edited December 25, 2014 4:10:07 pm "Disliking everything is not the same thing as having an opinion"
james54 Grasshopper Location: Texas Posts: 121 My Collection	Posted: December 25, 2014 5:36:41 pm I have never paid much attention to what the market says is the first appearance of a character, to me the first appearance of a character is the first time that the character shows up in a story and you can tell who it is. So yes I think Wolverine's first appearance was Hulk 180, I always have and I always will, Wolverine's first story though was Hulk 181. Then again why is Venom's first appearance Spider-man 299 and not when the symbiotic alien costume first shows up? It is after all the first technical appearance of what would become venom. There is also no question for me that Jimmy Olsen 134 was Darkseid's first appearance, as I remember it came out several months prior to both new gods and forever people. The sad truth is people debate first appearances as often as they debate what hero can beat what other hero, it's always been like that and it will most likely always be like that. For a real brain buster what was the first appearance of Warlock? Last edited December 25, 2014 5:37:51 pm Don't read my blogs! Unless of course you want to learn something...
rpenny88 Comic Guru lifetime member Location: Vancouver, Canada Posts: 733 My Collection	Posted: December 25, 2014 10:38:13 pm I agree that what the market dictates shouldn't be what we go by. A first appearance should not be a first full story. I still think a cameo has a place prior to the first appearance though. A hand or a shadow to me would be a cameo. james54 said: For a real brain buster what was the first appearance of Warlock? As for Warlock, I suppose FF 67 would be his first appearance even though Thor 165 gets a lot of attention since it's his first cover.
james54 Grasshopper Location: Texas Posts: 121 My Collection	Posted: December 25, 2014 11:32:06 pm rpenny88 said: I agree that what the market dictates shouldn't be what we go by. A first appearance should not be a first full story. I still think a cameo has a place prior to the first appearance though. A hand or a shadow to me would be a cameo. james54 said: For a real brain buster what was the first appearance of Warlock? As for Warlock, I suppose FF 67 would be his first appearance even though Thor 165 gets a lot of attention since it's his first cover. You would think that, but that was the first appearance of 'him' and is part two of 'him's origin story (part one being in FF66) and at the time I seriously doubt that anyone at marvel comics knew that he would be renamed Warlock five years later. So even though the character 'him' shows up in several issues of Thor and in Fantastic for, the Named Character Warlock does not appear until Marvel Premiere 1. Just as Harry Osborn didn't become the 2nd Green Goblin in Issue ASM 31 (his first appearance) but in 136 (although it is mentioned that he becomes GG in ASM 126). That was why in my original statement I said "character is the first time that the character shows up in a story and you can tell who it is" you can't tell that Him is Warlock when he first appears anymore than you can tell Harry Osborn will be the second green goblin. It is only by hindsight and the creativity of the later authors that we know these things. Last edited December 25, 2014 11:34:01 pm Don't read my blogs! Unless of course you want to learn something...
CrossoverKing Teacher Location: Johnstown, PA Posts: 263 My Collection	Posted: December 29, 2014 10:29:55 pm See...it's simple!
james54 Grasshopper Location: Texas Posts: 121 My Collection	Posted: December 29, 2014 11:21:30 pm Crossoverking said: See...it's simple! I'm so pleased that you understand... now could you explain it to me? Don't read my blogs! Unless of course you want to learn something...
CrossoverKing Teacher Location: Johnstown, PA Posts: 263 My Collection	Posted: December 30, 2014 1:05:13 am LOL..and ruin all the fun?
Mr.Grimm Teacher Location: British Columbia, Canada Posts: 486 My Collection	Posted: January 30, 2015 9:37:54 pm If there is a full character draw in a book it is first appearance. The market doesn't constitute what is truth it constitutes what people are willing to pay. The truth is separate from that. The only reason this suddenly become an issue is it favors certain individuals agenda. The truth is 180 is the first appearance. I have 181 not 180. I will stand by what is true. its not a debate. Back in the 70s there was no first full appearance, it was first appearance. You can buy what the market says or you can buy the first appearance hulk 180, its up to you. Make no mistake market and what is true can often be 2 different things, and in this case it does. But what i would do is buy 180 because its cheaper, and if people suddenly scramble for those issues, the market might have a change in heart . More fun comics with the pro-type super-man i predict will rise up to those million dollar prices like Action#1. good topic Comic Rarity
Canuck I have no life moderator Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 10685 My Collection	Posted: January 30, 2015 10:41:46 pm I don't have a problem with what the people want and what issue is worth more, as in the case of Hulk 180 and 181. I just think we should list it as it should be... Hulk 180 is the 1st appearance of Wolverine regardless of value. "Disliking everything is not the same thing as having an opinion"
james54 Grasshopper Location: Texas Posts: 121 My Collection	Posted: January 31, 2015 6:20:32 am Canadianvariant said: If there is a full character draw in a book it is first appearance. The market doesn't constitute what is truth it constitutes what people are willing to pay. The truth is separate from that. The only reason this suddenly become an issue is it favors certain individuals agenda. The truth is 180 is the first appearance. I have 181 not 180. I will stand by what is true. its not a debate. Back in the 70s there was no first full appearance, it was first appearance. You can buy what the market says or you can buy the first appearance hulk 180, its up to you. Make no mistake market and what is true can often be 2 different things, and in this case it does. But what i would do is buy 180 because its cheaper, and if people suddenly scramble for those issues, the market might have a change in heart . More fun comics with the pro-type super-man i predict will rise up to those million dollar prices like Action#1. good topic What Prototype for Superman would that be? Keep in mind that while the 'superman' we know today has changed allot over the years and his first published appearance was in April 1938s Action 1 (June cover date), he was created in 1933 a full two years before the publication of New Fun #1. Last edited January 31, 2015 6:21:48 am Don't read my blogs! Unless of course you want to learn something...
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