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CGC policy on Qualified books (Comic Book Forums)

  • CGC policy on Qualified books

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  • Posted: November 9, 2010 11:59:09 am
  • Based on a recent posting where a book missing a story page was given an 8.0 qualified grade,
    http://comicbookrealm.com/topic/24/11271
    I asked CGC about it. This is their response...

    said:

    Subject: RE: Contact form filled out

    I just spoke with our VP and he said that any page missing can produce a qualified label instead of automatically killing an otherwise beautiful book down to a .5.

    ---
    Wm. Eric Downton
    CGC Receiving Manager
    ---
    Subject: RE: Contact form filled out

    Eric,

    Here is a screen shot of the item from the auction, clearly showing the CGC sticker and number.

    It clearly states "Last page missing, affects story, incomplete". I just find it hard to believe an 8.0 grade, even qualified, would go on an item that is clearly incomplete. I have instances where in my own experience CGC has refused to grade at 8.0 or higher because of a bend that breaks color.

    Does the qualified grade simply mean it looks nice, no matter what the real condition is?mkevt=1&mkcid=1&mkrid=711-53200-19255-0&campid=5336824214&toolid=10001& If so, then CGC has lost a great deal of credibility, not only with myself, but also the ComicBookRealm.com web site and it's members that are tracking this discussion right now.

    Larry

    -------Original Message-------

    Subject: RE: Contact form filled out

    I am sorry, but our internet is blocked and I cannot see that post. If you can provide the actual certification number, I can look it up for you.

    As for the 8.0 and Qualified status, if the page is an ad page that does not affect the story, then we would Qualify it meaning we ignore it for grading purposes. If we did not do that (for a story page, for instance), the book would have gotten a .5 Incomplete grade and have been killed, value wise.

    CGC policy has always been to be a fair as possible, and we will always qualify such issues with a clear note as to the reason on the label. If that does not sit well with you, I am sorry, but it is how we do it and you always have the choice not to buy the book.

    ---
    Wm. Eric Downton
    CGC Receiving Manager
    ---

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    To: CGC Submissions
    Subject: Contact form filled out


    The following contact responded to the page at /ccg/cgc/cgcComics/contactSave.asp
    Name: Larry Sipe
    Title:
    Company:
    Address:
    Address2:
    City:
    State:
    Zip:
    Country:
    Phone: *********
    Extension:
    Fax:
    Email: ***********
    Their answers are below:
    formname CGC-Contactus
    message Can you explain to me how a comic missing a page got an 8.0 grade?mkevt=1&mkcid=1&mkrid=711-53200-19255-0&campid=5336824214&toolid=10001&?mkevt=1&mkcid=1&mkrid=711-53200-19255-0&campid=5336824214&toolid=10001& Even "qualified" an incomplete comic should grade no more than FAIR?mkevt=1&mkcid=1&mkrid=711-53200-19255-0&campid=5336824214&toolid=10001&?mkevt=1&mkcid=1&mkrid=711-53200-19255-0&campid=5336824214&toolid=10001& http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?mkevt=1&mkcid=1&mkrid=711-53200-19255-0&campid=5336824214&toolid=10001&ViewItem&rt=nc&nma=true&item=130450255690&si=8prxaPEy5%252FraanRRAI916PBbmVc%253D&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWNX%3AIT
    submit Submit




    SOOOO. I guess it is buyer beware when buying a CGC Qualified book. You are probably getting a book with a hidden defect, missing page(s), etc. So basically you are buying a worthless but attractive book.

    Hmmm, I wonder if I send them this gorgeous early Lois Lane cover I have , which is unfortunately just the cover, I can get a 9.4 qualified grade on it?mkevt=1&mkcid=1&mkrid=711-53200-19255-0&campid=5336824214&toolid=10001&?mkevt=1&mkcid=1&mkrid=711-53200-19255-0&campid=5336824214&toolid=10001&?mkevt=1&mkcid=1&mkrid=711-53200-19255-0&campid=5336824214&toolid=10001& Think

    The joy is in the journey, not just the destination.
  • Posted: November 9, 2010 12:11:28 pm
  • thanks that clear up a lot. =), I got it for cheap too, not too worried about it, Now I'd rather buy raw comics instead of qualfied ones. haha

    Edit: They person that was selling the qualified books, also has 2 or 3 more qualified Wilbur books for sale, all with good grades =S

    Last edited November 9, 2010 12:15:00 pm
    Image
  • Posted: November 9, 2010 12:44:03 pm
  • "As for the 8.0 and Qualified status, if the page is an ad page that does not affect the story, then we would Qualify it meaning we ignore it for grading purposes."

    WHAT?? I can tear out sections of story pages without affecting the story, so would they look the other way for that too? Why not do that for all comics? "9.6 Qualified .... inside pages are all torn, but otherwise nice!"

    I've totally lost respect for CGC.

    "If we did not do that (for a story page, for instance), the book would have gotten a .5 Incomplete grade and have been killed, value wise. "

    Well that comic WAS missing a story page, so I'm not sure what they're talking about. Seems like they're saying that book SHOULD have gotten a 0.5 grade because it was missing a story page, not an ad page.





    Last edited November 9, 2010 12:47:26 pm
  • Posted: November 9, 2010 4:12:07 pm
  • I am sorry...I just don't get it. I can understand a qualified label for non-verified signatures, however, they shouldn't qualify a book for any other reason. The whole point of CGC (PGX) is to have an impartial 3rd party grade the book at INDUSTRY standards.

    If the "bible" (Overstreet) says it should be a .5 or 1.0 at best, then that is the grade it should have.

    CGC said:
    "If we did not do that (for a story page, for instance), the book would have gotten a .5 Incomplete grade and have been killed, value wise. "
    THAT IS THE WHOLE POINT...there is no value in a .5. You are arbitrarily trying to inflate the "value" of the book.

    Try sending them a modern comic with the cover missing. Would they give it a 10.0 qualified if the overall book is perfect just without the cover?

    Last edited November 9, 2010 4:14:21 pm
    Favorite Quote: "You're not just some guy in a bat costume are you? ARE YOU FREAKING KIDDING ME?! - Justice League #1, 2011"

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  • Posted: November 9, 2010 4:27:39 pm
  • I see now, how this a big issue =S
    Image
  • Posted: November 9, 2010 10:33:37 pm
  • I had always been skeptical about "slabbed" books from CGC & PGX; now, I believe I'm seeing the light....

    CGC said:
    If that does not sit well with you, I am sorry, but it is how we do it and you always have the choice not to buy the book.


    To me, that comment is like a blatant slap in the face to honest collectors who want to preserve their books in the best way possible. You're right CGC; I will NEVER purchase ANY books from you.Not talking

    I'd also like to tell them where to "sit"......Twisted Evil

    Thanks, Spa, for your research into this matter.

    Last edited November 9, 2010 10:34:52 pm
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  • Posted: November 10, 2010 1:36:01 pm
  • **** More info

    From: Eric Downton
    Date: 11/10/2010 1:54:10 PM
    Subject: RE: Contact form filled out

    You are correct in that we do use the Qualifed label for signatures, but that is only one of the stated reasons we use it. I am sorry if that seems misleading to you, but our Qualified labels always clearly state why the book was qualified. If the seller does not disclose this or if a buyer does not look into a book knowing full well that the book does not have a blue Universal label, then that is not CGC's fault.

    If you do not like what we do with the Qualified label, then simply do not buy such books. The fact that we do qualify books does not negate the accuracy of our blue Universal grades.

    I do wish there was a resolution to this issue for you, but I don't think there is. We stand behind our resoning for a Qualified label and I do not see that changing any time soon.

    ---
    Wm. Eric Downton
    CGC Receiving Manager

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    From: Larry Sipe
    Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 1:39 PM
    To: Eric Downton
    Subject: RE: Contact form filled out


    Eric,

    In discussions with other collectors, it has been generally agreed that the CGC "Qualified" grade was thought to be initiated specifically for signed books where CGC staff did not personally witness the signature, which is probably a very, very large portion of signed books. It was agreed that this was a form of protection for CGC, while recognizing signatures that may have a valid Certificate of Authenticity. It is agreed that this is a valid purpose for "Qualified" grade.

    But all members, that have expressed an opinion, agree that for CGC to assign a higher grade to an otherwise uncollectible comic, is invalid and very misleading. To accentuate the point, here are several online grading guides that do not grade an incomplete comic above a 0.5 to 1.8. I am also told that the Official Overstreet Grading Guide, the "Bible" if you will, of the comic collecting universe, also makes this point, although I cannot verify this as I do not have a current copy.

    From other sources:
    http://www.nostomania.com/servlets/com.nostomania.CatPage?name=ComicsGradingMain - 0.5 for an incomplete book.
    http://www.comicspriceguide.com/p-conditions.asp - 1.0 to 1.5 for an incomplete book.
    http://www.teako170.com/poor.html - 0.5 grade for any missing pages which affect a story.
    http://stlcomics.com/grdgd.html - 1.0 to 1.8 no specifics details mentioned, but no higher grade listed with any missing page.
    http://www.comic-book-collection-made-easy.com/comic-book-price-guide.html - 0.5 grade for any missing pages.
    http://www.metropoliscomics.com//load_page.php?page=Grading_Criteria - Here is an excerpt from their referenced "Overstreet Grading Guide (underline mine)":

    POOR (PR) (ONE 0.5): Most comic books in this grade have been sufficiently degraded to the point that copies may have extremely severe stains, missing staples, brittleness, mildew or moderate to heavy cover abrasion to the point that some cover inks are indistinct/absent. Comic books in this grade can have small chunks missing and pieces out of pages. They may have been defaced with paints, varnishes, glues, oil, indelible markers or dyes. Covers may be split the entire length of the book, but both halves must be present and basically still there with some chunks missing. A page(s) may be missing as long as it is noted along side of the nomenclature; I.e.: “POOR (0.5) 2nd Page Missing.” Value depends on extent of defects, but would average about 1/3 of GOOD.

    http://www.hoboes.com/pub/Comics/About%20Comics/Technical%20Issues/Grading%20Guide/ - POOR grade is best, with FAIR for missing pieces but story intact.
    http://www.2-clicks-comics.com/article/comic-book-grading.html - 0.5 grade for any missing pages.

    I could probably add dozens more, but I'm sure you get the picture. And all the above agree that FAIR is the lowest acceptable grade for collecting. I would hope that you might reconsider your position on this, as it detracts from the reputation of CGC as a reliable and trustworthy source of fair and equitable grading. Your statement "any page missing can produce a qualified label instead of automatically killing an otherwise beautiful book down to a .5" implies you take a book with no value and are assigning a false value to it. This whole discussion came up because one of our members bought the book in question and asked if it was a good deal. It is sad because he didn't read the fine print and paid for a worthless book with a CGC rating of 8.0. In many cases, it is not easy to read the fine print in an auction. But you can be sure many of our members will now automatically be skeptical of any CGC "Qualified" books.

    Yes, it is buyer beware, but isn't that the very reason that CGC has evolved into the industry standard? I just hope that to give an incomplete book a qualified grade is not just a matter of profits to sell a service. I have many CGC books and trust that they are graded fairly and using a set of standards. But this matter has shaken my confidence. I have a very nice, possibly 8.0 to 8.5, cover for a Silver Age Lois Lane comic, just the cover. If I sent that to you, do you think you would give it a qualified grade of 8.0 even if there were no story pages? I sure hope not. I am really not trying to be contentious, I am just shocked at what I, and others, consider a trust being broken.

    Larry

    **** PS He didn't address the last paragraph, or the bookless cover question...
    The joy is in the journey, not just the destination.
  • Posted: November 10, 2010 1:55:16 pm
  • Spa - you should have gone with "I have a Cover for Lois Lane that I've stapled to a Shadowhawk comic" and asked if they'd give it an 8.0 with the comment "Incorrect interior". Wink

    It really does make a joke of the concept...... but then I would never buy a slabbed book because my reason for buying comics is to read them generally. Very Happy
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  • Posted: November 10, 2010 2:03:58 pm
  • Has anyone brought this up on other forums they might go to? I.e. what is the consensus in the CGC forums?
    Favorite Quote: "You're not just some guy in a bat costume are you? ARE YOU FREAKING KIDDING ME?! - Justice League #1, 2011"

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  • Posted: November 10, 2010 2:12:05 pm
  • I'm not a frequenter of other forums, but if someone is, maybe they could pose the question there also?
    The joy is in the journey, not just the destination.
  • Posted: November 10, 2010 2:44:11 pm
  • Disregard; posted bad link....Embarassed

    Last edited November 15, 2010 1:05:40 am
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  • Posted: November 12, 2010 1:56:27 pm
  • If you guys need more information, like pictures Drool I have received the book. But the slabbing is much thicker than my other CGC comics Eh?

    Last edited November 12, 2010 1:57:06 pm
    Image
  • Posted: November 12, 2010 3:27:59 pm
  • Book are you fratenizing with the enemy? Twisted Evil

    I tried going to the link to see if anyone said anything, but I couldn't access it.
    Favorite Quote: "You're not just some guy in a bat costume are you? ARE YOU FREAKING KIDDING ME?! - Justice League #1, 2011"

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  • Posted: November 12, 2010 8:28:12 pm
  • dough boy said:
    Book are you fraternizing with the enemy?Twisted Evil


    Not at all, D.B.; my #1 comic site will always be CBR. You should be honored, though; JMO, the other site looks like it was inspired by your site.

    Will try to post again with this topic; with your express permission, of course.



    Pick-ups this month
    ?

    On the way...
    The Avengers (Vol. 1) #58
    Silver Surfer (Vol. 1) #2
    Crisis on Infinite Earths DC/Wal-Mart 100-pg Giant


    Submitted/Back from CGC...
    ?

  • Posted: November 12, 2010 8:38:46 pm
  • Oh I am just teasing you...there is room for everyone I guess.

    I was just curious why when I clicked on that link I couldn't get to it...wasn't sure if I had to log in or not.
    Favorite Quote: "You're not just some guy in a bat costume are you? ARE YOU FREAKING KIDDING ME?! - Justice League #1, 2011"

    Hunting for (mainly reprints/variants) - Please help! - See My Profile
  • Posted: October 29, 2011 5:06:46 pm
  • Hi to all. I just joined up and I'm pleased that I found this site. The reason I found it is because of an auction I ran across on eBay a few minutes ago. Here is the link: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Batman-222-CGC-9-0-VF-NM-DC-1970-Beatles-cover-/110761848814?mkevt=1&mkcid=1&mkrid=711-53200-19255-0&campid=5336824214&toolid=10001&pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item19c9ebafee#ht_709wt_952.

    This is for a copy of Batman # 222, CGC "Qualified" 9.0. It's qualified because the cover is detached at the bottom staple. Now, as I'm sure you all know, the highest grade Overstreet allows for a comic with a "detached at one staple" cover is 3.0. This seller has a Buy-It-Now price of $299.99 for this copy. The value in the current Overstreet for this issue in 9.0 is $76.00. I haven't even figured up what it guides at for 3.0 condition. In short, this seller wants almost 4 times the 9.0 value for a 3.0 copy! I can't blame CGC for this seller's insane BIN price, but I do blame them for using "Qualified" grades, which is one of the biggest jokes I've ever seen, when it comes to grading a comic book. It's either in 9.0 or 3.0 condition, and my money's on 3.0. It's taking a lot of willpower for me to not email the seller and ask him is he crazy. CGC's response to Larry at the beginning of this thread really drives home the truth to me concerning how impartial CGC is when it comes to grading. It's all about the money, not grading accurately. I'm sorry if I bother anyone in here with my opinion, but I feel that CGC should close it's doors, because as the owner of Tomorrow's Treasures stated, it's in CGC's interest to inflate grades, and that's just what they do.

    Once again, I'm glad I found this site, and I wish you all well. I'd love to hear other's opinions about CGC.

    (Another) Larry
  • Posted: March 31, 2014 11:00:21 am
  • the thing is that they do tell you why they give it a grade of qualified. With that information it is up to you to decide if you want to buy it. I side with the CGC on that
  • Posted: March 31, 2014 11:08:02 am
  • Yeah...but if the industry standard says a book should be X with flaw Y, but CGC says hey, we will grade it as a Z with flaw Y and just put "qualified" on it, doesn't that essentially rewrite the industry standard to be more of a, this is a Gem Mint 10.0 with these few flaws. You should then decide what you think the value should be...
    Favorite Quote: "You're not just some guy in a bat costume are you? ARE YOU FREAKING KIDDING ME?! - Justice League #1, 2011"

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  • Posted: April 1, 2014 7:46:47 am
  • in all fairness they have become the standard
  • Posted: April 1, 2014 7:56:47 am
  • Then they should post/publish what their grading ranges are. I.e. tear means this, missing piece means that. At least with the standard grading system we can all be in agreement with what it means. Now that they are the "standard" they tend to grade things differently between graders. They use the same universal .5 - 10.0, but don't use the same logic everyone else does...
    Favorite Quote: "You're not just some guy in a bat costume are you? ARE YOU FREAKING KIDDING ME?! - Justice League #1, 2011"

    Hunting for (mainly reprints/variants) - Please help! - See My Profile
  • Posted: April 1, 2014 11:59:09 am
  • ferpuerto said:
    in all fairness they have become the standard
    What's fair about that?
  • Posted: April 1, 2014 2:10:10 pm
  • junobeach said:
    ferpuerto said:
    in all fairness they have become the standard
    What's fair about that?

    What is fair about any standard. I mean collectors take them seriously because they are pretty consistent. Again 3 different people have to agree on a single grade, not just one
  • Posted: April 6, 2014 7:09:31 pm
  • So, as they have indicated - "Buyer Beware." In other words before you buy a Qualified CGC book, read the label carefully to judge for yourself what the true grade is to you.
    The joy is in the journey, not just the destination.
  • Posted: April 18, 2014 7:51:03 am
  • Hmm yes, I was just speaking about this recently...

    CGC has to much of a monopoly on grading, to a point where all people see is that number rather than the actual book. Grading will never be a perfect science, but I had actually not read this post before. An 8.0 with a story page missing are you kitten me right meow?

    CGC is so expensive and hardly gets blasted as much for their flaws, it's sad for people who try to collect or sell raw who get totally screwed by high prices of CGC books.
  • Posted: May 2, 2014 2:06:27 am
  • I was in my LCS today and they had a 9.8 X-Men #266 (1st Gambit). I looked at it and the cover is miscut.

    You can see in the cover from this site that there is equal amount of space between The Uncanny and the edge of the book. The one at the shop had a lot of space between The and the edge while the end of Uncanny was just clipped off. I looked at it and laughed. It immediately made me think of this thread.

    Image
    "You will soon see the distinct advantages of having no scruples whatsoever!" - Cobra Commander
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